Podcast Transcript: 2. Could we lose salmon in our lifetime?
With Cecilia Gobin

Justin Cox (00:01):

Okay, welcome to Pod of Orcas. I'm Justin Cox, and with me is SeaDoc Society board member, Kevin Campion. Hello, Kevin.

Kevin Campion (00:07):

Hey, what's up Justin. Listeners are hearing this like a month apart or something, but what they don't know is through the magic of technology I actually spoke with you five minutes ago about one of the other episodes, but I could do this 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Justin Cox (00:22):

I'm sure we can arrange a reality TV program and follow you around.

Kevin Campion (00:26):

Yeah, let's do it.

Justin Cox (00:28):

So today we're talking about salmon, which is a major part of Southern Resident killer whale conservation conversations, and our guest is Cecilia Gobin. I'll say a little bit more about her as I introduce her, but I really enjoyed this conversation and I know you had a chance to listen to it during a little road trip into the wilderness, right?

Kevin Campion (00:48):

Yeah, totally. And was pretty much glued to the speakers, listening to her. She makes this great point about sacrifice. And if we want to save salmon and through that save Southern Resident killer whales, we really need to be identifying the sacrifices that folks need to make, and that we as a community need to make. And like that really resonated with me.

Justin Cox (01:16):

You can hear optimism in her voice, and I think that's because she's the type of person who will never stop doing this work. It's where her heart and her mind are. But you also hear this really sober kind of realism, that’s like, if people want to make a change for this species (and we're talking about salmon, but by extension, you can connect some dots to Southern Resident killer whales, obviously) but if people want to address these problems, some of these solutions are going to cause discomfort. They're going to be uncomfortable. And if you don't make those changes, you might risk losing salmon, which would also mean losing Southern Resident killer whales. And what's an example of these kinds of sacrifices that might need to be made?

Kevin Campion (01:54):

As Washingtonians, as, you know, folks that live in the Salish Sea, we're all stakeholders in this thing. And, you know, there's some big and small sacrifices that could be made. If I had to think of something off the top of my head, you know, the obvious one that is often talked about, and for good reason, is removing the four lower Snake River dams, which are, you know, a barrier to fish passage, and also, you know, part of the economy for the folks that live there. And here's an example of a community of folks who probably don't even think of themselves as stakeholders in the plight of the Southern Resident killer whales, but we are asking of them…we're saying we want to have orcas in a hundred years. We want to have salmon in the Columbia River in a hundred years. And we're asking them to do this huge thing, you know, for the orca’s benefit. And it is one of many, many things that are likely going to be necessary. I think there's probably ways to recover fish without pulling down those dams, but I think that pulling down the dams are one of the easiest ways to certainly recover fish in that watershed.

Justin Cox (03:17):

Salmon are so fascinating because they're the ultimate species that you can just trace all the way up into…you can go three states away from Washington and still be talking about salmon.

Kevin Campion (03:26):

It's so cool how, you know, here's a fish that's coming from the Northern Gulf of Alaska, maybe even over by Russia, that then is bringing this nitrogen and all these nutrients from the ocean up, you know, I don't know, a thousand miles or something. Maybe, maybe not that far. Way up the Columbia River watershed, up the Snake River watershed, leaving those nutrients in the stream, getting those nutrients in the forest. You know, there's bears benefiting, there’s songbirds benefiting, all the bears and songbirds all contribute to that ecosystem that then is cooling the water for their baby fish. Salmon are, start to finish, how an ecosystem works. You know, if you understand how they work, you're going to understand a whole lot about the ecosystem, but that means that saving these fish is insanely complicated and therefore making some of these sacrifices that we're recognizing like, you know, pulling down the dams or, you know (this might date it) but Inslee just today is asking things of the state to fund culvert removal in a different way. There's all these things you can do for fish, but because there's so many things that need to happen, it's very easy to say, well, mine's not going to have that big an impact because mine is one of a hundred things that needs to happen. And so it's, I don't know if I can make that sacrifice and it makes it very hard as a state, as a community of stakeholders, to make these decisions collectively, when maybe you're asking a larger sacrifice of someone else than you're asking for yourself.

Justin Cox (05:22):

Cecelia starts off (basically you're going to see her on the beaches and out on the water) kind of taking us in in a way that's just a human being that's part of her culture, and it's not professional yet. But Cecilia is a conservation policy analyst with the Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission where she represents the tribes. She's also on the board of the Northwest Straits Commission, and she's a Tulalip tribal member. It's the right person you want to talk to about this. And just like you, I found it to be just a really magnetic conversation. And it's one of those people that you feel like, I'm glad this person is speaking on behalf of this species. 

Kevin Campion:

Totally, man. Yeah. 

Justin Cox:

You can get the free SeaDoc Society monthly newsletter at seadocsociety.org/newsletter. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Enjoy! This series is made possible by our amazing sponsors, Shearwater Kayak Tours, Rainshadow Solar, Two Beers Brewing Company, Deer Harbor Charters and the Averna family, Betsy Wareham and West Sound Marina, the San Juan County Marine Resources Committee, and Apple State Vinegar. Thank you also to an anonymous donor who sponsored in the memory of Nancy Alboucq. We are a science-based organization on Orcas Island, and we are part of the Karen C. Drayer Wildlife Health Center at the U.C. Davis School of Veterinary Medicine.

Justin Cox (06:42):

Okay. Cecilia Gobin, welcome to the podcast. 

Cecilia Gobin:

Thanks for having me. 

Justin Cox:

I've recently been doing some reading about your work and watched a couple of your talks. Something that I really enjoyed was this; basically, you get to see the world through your eyes as a child making personal connections to this, and not only your personal connections but the tribes, and you kind of get this sense of this connection that exists between you and the work that you end up doing, which is very tied to all of that too. Can you sort of take us, take us a little bit on that journey? Like take us back to you as a kid and how you ended up where you are now.

Cecilia Gobin (07:20):

Yeah. I basically grew up on the water and the water time at the beach, whether it was fishing or playing or, you know, when I could get out and drive around on my own, just going there with friends or relatives. It's just been a part of, you know, my earliest memories and my every day basically. And, you know, I was out on the fishing boats even well before I could be put to work, if you will. Just my dad just, it was really important to him to have his children out on the water, just as, you know, his parents brought him and my aunts and uncles out and just taught them about fishing and the water and the resources and what it means. Not just from a cultural standpoint or economic standpoint, but also its role just in our ability to fill our freezers. And you know, that subsistence way of life.

Justin Cox (08:19):

When you're out there as a child in that space, is your dad and your family talking to you about that connection explicitly, or is it just sort of like, you soak it up by seeing it actually in action and you come away with the idea that this is a huge part of our life?

Cecilia Gobin (08:36):

I would say it's a little of both, you know. I also come from not just a fishing family, but also very culturally grounded, very culturally active family. And so there was definitely a very explicit you know, cultural teachings and instructions. Other times it was kind of implied, whether you're talking about how the waters move in a specific area, how the fish like to run depending on what beach you're on and what the tide's doing or what the weather is doing. Even down to the, really the geography, if you will, or the topography, of the ocean floor or the, you know, the Salish Sea floor. Learning where it gets shallow real quick, or where there’s certain, you know, shelves or sandbars.

Justin Cox (09:30):

What's so cool about how you describe the learning about the sea floor and the sandbars and things like that, is I've had conversations with Joe Gaydos, our science director, about how the Southern Resident killer whales know where a river spills out into the sea, and killer whales will use that spot to then chase salmon up against a cliff edge where they know they can hunt them. And it's their knowledge of that same thing in hunting the food that basically keeps them alive.

Cecilia Gobin (10:00):

Totally. And I've been on the water, you know, in chum season where we've seen the killer whales come through and drive schools of fish literally up on the beach so that they could take what they needed to. And just witnessing that in and of itself in such a totally awe inspiring moment, but also I couldn't help, and I still can't help, to make connections about, you know, some of our own kind of traditional fishing techniques like beach seining, which essentially is the same idea of going out and taking a net and setting it off the beach in kind of a U shape, and kind of sweeping this shallow shelf and then driving the fish up into the shallow water, and that waterline, as you pull your net in to basically land the fish. And the fact that the techniques are so similar, if you will, it definitely makes you think about, alright, so we definitely maybe have watched the natural world do some things and maybe picked up on some of their techniques and employed them how we could.

Justin Cox (11:18):

Absolutely. I interrupted as you went from your youth up through how that then transitions into the work you're doing now.

Cecilia Gobin (11:26):

All of my family, I can confidently say, is involved in one way or another in working for our people, working for Indian country. I think it's just a value that we were all raised with, and myself especially, and it just really further directed the areas that I studied in college. I just couldn't imagine any other line of work for myself to be involved in. It's just so intrinsically linked to who I am and where I come from.

Justin Cox (12:02):

I think that's a good transition to, something I've heard you say is “our salmon, our responsibility”, so it's a good transition to the current situation with salmon and the work that's being done to try and ensure that they continue to be here and ideally have their situation improved. And as it relates to this podcast, their situation directly compounds the already difficult situation with the Southern Residents. What does “our salmon, our responsibility” mean with the idea that this is a species that's in bad shape and a lot of work needs to be done to improve their situation.

Cecilia Gobin (12:44):

When I say that, it's referring to not just those legal and co-management responsibilities that exist between tribes and the state, and even kind of the inferred responsibilities that local jurisdictions have also in ensuring that they're not doing anything promulgating laws or activities that allow for the destruction of salmon or their habitat. But it also comes from a place in me that is very culturally grounded and informed by some of our teachings. These resources were and are entrusted to us to steward in perpetuity for generations to come. Our whole ways of life, our whole ceremonial life ways, our ways of potlatch, our first food ceremonies, are grounded in these teachings about taking care of these resources so that they can sustain the needs of our people and our communities. You know, things like the first salmon ceremony, which is really, I would say, a perfect reflection of that statement, “our salmon, our responsibility”. It's our responsibility to take care of these places, these rivers, the estuaries, those spawning grounds, so that the salmon have a place to come back to. And in the First Salmon Ceremony, it's really documenting and giving thanks for that return of that first King salmon in the spring. Not only is that King salmon an honored guest for our people, and that's why we hold this ceremony for him, but he's also a scout for the salmon people to see how well we've held up our end of the bargain, if you will, about taking care of his home and the homes of his family. At the end of the ceremony, we return his remains to the water so that he can go back and report to his villages and say whether or not it's essentially safe for them to come home. So that statement is really a reflection of that. And the First Salmon Ceremony, in particular, I think is a reflection of that symbiotic relationship that exists between the people and the salmon, and really the natural world in general. When I relay that statement, or when I relayed to that statement, “our salmon, our responsibility” in the context of a salmon recovery conference, it was really trying to get at the bottom line of why we're all here. We do have a responsibility to these things.

Justin Cox (16:00):

There's a lot of small little decisions you can make that…you’ve got to take what you can get in terms of successes when you're trying to affect positive change, but I just find this very clarifying and just realistic. You say, “We must become familiar with being uncomfortable and move beyond our comfort zones, asking for funding or volunteers is comfortable because it's what we've done, but we have to do more and think bigger and say hard things and encourage others to do the same.” Because we're talking about a situation where a population of this very important species, not only to the ecosystem scientifically, but on a cultural level, on a societal level, has severely dropped, and the size of the fish themselves has dropped. It's a situation where real change needs to happen. And then you quote Robert Frost, “The road we've long been traveling is deceptively easy, a smooth superhighway on which we progress with great speed, but at the end lies disasters, the other fork in the road, the one less traveled, offers our only chance to reach the preservation of earth.” Talk a little bit more about that, and something I'm curious, you don't have to answer this question completely directly, but if the status quo were maintained, could you see a future without salmon?

Cecilia Gobin (17:15):

Yeah. So if you look at the salmon recovery plans, they include a whole range of actions of varying degree of difficulty, if you will, whether that's funding needs, funding difficulties, you know, big projects that are going to require a lot of capital, or whether it's regulatory changes that are going to require a lot of political will to do them. I think to date, we, this region, has effectively done all of the easy things when it comes to salmon recovery. And that's not to say that that's bad or good, it's just how we decided to start trying to recover salmon. You know, you have to start somewhere. On the flip side of that, what that means then is that all of those hard decisions, all of those big action items, you know, those big ticket items, are what's left. We have to get to a point where we realize that we have to really buckle down and it's going to require us to really up our game. It's going to require us to really step outside of the boxes that we've been playing in, you know, that comfort zone that I talk about. And so when I say we have to become familiar with being uncomfortable, it's really about change, you know, changing how we go about salmon recovery. We can't just think that we're going to do all the things that we have been doing for the last 20 years, because that's only gotten us so far. And unfortunately it also hasn't changed the trajectory of salmon recovery. You know, since the Chinook in Puget Sound have been listed in 1999, the trajectory of their populations, status and trends, have only continued to decline. And so we really have to ask ourselves, what are we not doing? What things need to happen and how do we do that? Whether that's getting together the appropriate financial capital to pull off these big projects, or whether it just comes down to political will, folks needing to have hard conversations with industries or businesses that they've historically just kind of given a pass to, instead holding them more accountable to the needs of recovery, the standards of recovery, to regulations. It's really talking about getting at those items that we've kind of avoided, for better or worse, because that's all that's left. And we can't just walk away.

Justin Cox (20:21):

Before I move to looking ahead at how one might do that, which I know is probably a question without really one single specific answer, how did we get here with this situation with salmon? How did things get so bleak and bad to where we have this long uphill road ahead? 

Bob Friel (20:48):

Hi, this is Bob Friel, producer of the SeaDoc Society's video series Salish Sea Wild. Follow SeaDoc’s Joe Gaydos as he explores the wonders of the Salish Sea. Watch Joe shake hands with the world's biggest octopus, get nibbled on by huge Steller sea lions, and witness our wildest wildlife events. To see the show, just go to YouTube and search for Salish Sea Wild. Don't miss the episode where Dr. Joe makes a house call to check on the health of our beloved Southern Resident killer whales.

Justin Cox (21:18):

We have a brand new episode of Salish Sea Wild coming out next week, and the topic should be pretty top of mind. Here's a quick preview from Joe Gaydos.

Joe Gaydos (21:27):

It's fall, and the Skagit is filled with salmon. Chinook are spawning in the mainstem, Coho are spawning in the tributaries, carcasses are lining the shores, eagles are in the trees, and bears are coming down to feed. It's a wild time to be here, and we're going to go get in this cold water and see if we can join the salmon on their migration to their spawning grounds.

Cecilia Gobin (21:54):

I feel like, when it comes to salmon recovery, we've tried to keep everybody at the table and everybody happy. And the reality of that, is that it's impossible. You can't keep everyone happy in all things all the time. However, I would say also, while we've tried to do that, we the region, have tried to do that in our approach to salmon recovery, I would say, largely, that the tribes who have the treaty, right, have not been the happy ones at the table. Oftentimes we're the ones asked to make continued sacrifices whether that's cutting back on fishing, or not fishing, or not pursuing certain regulatory backstops. We get a lot of pushback on the priorities that the tribes have collectively tried to push forward and advocate for. And unfortunately, I think the result of trying to keep everybody happy all the time, or never telling people “no” outrightly, is this status quo situation that maybe feels good, and maybe it felt good at the outset, but the reality is that it hasn't worked and it's not really changed anything in terms of recovery.

Justin Cox (23:38):

Yeah my read on when you say we've effectively done all of the easy things, but now we need to do the hard things, is that it's commendable to be doing things, but it's much harder to be doing the things that require genuine, real sacrifice or things that are going to make parties unhappy. It's a sacrifice, and you could see how that's a much harder sort of thing to move.

Cecilia Gobin (24:09):

Also a contributing factor in all of this is that unfortunately, from a financial standpoint, we've never had the dollars that we actually truly need to do this work. Not just here in Western Washington, but across the state. And from a federal and state funding standpoint, there's a lot of competing pots that arguably pull a lot of potential funding that could go to salmon recovery. It goes to these other priorities that are just as much a priority for the state and for this region. Somehow we have to find a way to change that, whether that's at the state level in the legislature, or whether that's finding ways to tap into some of these private funding opportunities or sources like NGOs or you know, folks like Amazon or something. How do we tap into some of those resources to actually reignite our salmon recovery efforts in a way that can truly be sustainable and successful?

Justin Cox (25:28):

I'm curious, when you talk to people and you meet individual people, if someone feels like they want to affect change in this way, as it relates to salmon, what does someone listening to this podcast, what can people do? I think, and it's another question that I don't know, it's a hard one to answer, but I think it's one people on a personal level feel whether it's for the salmon, whether it's for the ecosystem as a whole, whether it's for the Southern Resident killer whales. I'm speaking a little bit from my own personal experience at SeaDoc Society here, but, in part it's a desire to be involved, but in part it's also a desire to not sit by while something just happens, whether it's getting involved or not, not wanting to be a part of the problem or just idle. What do you tend to tell people in those kinds of conversations?

Cecilia Gobin (26:17):

My first kind of go-to is, education is obviously key, and to just get read up on the issues, the current issues, as much as possible. The State of Our Watersheds report is a huge effort by tribes who compile what they're seeing on the landscape and in their watersheds that are pressures to the habitat. Each Western Washington treaty tribe has a chapter in that report. There's a lot of local citizen science groups, or even just the SeaDoc Society in putting together your guys' monthly talks that you do from time to time, is a great way for people to not just get informed, but especially at the local level to really find ways to get engaged. I also work with the Northwest Straits Commission and sit on their board. You know, the Marine Resource Committees play a huge role in connecting citizens wanting to get out and do something and support this huge recovery network that’s happening in Washington. If you can get people engaged in their backyard, I think that means a lot more. Certainly just from my own upbringing, when you can connect it to back to your home and to your place and to your community, it really fuels the work and the passion behind the work.

Justin Cox (27:52):

I think I've spent a good amount of time here, quoting yourself back to you, but you also said “what's good for salmon is good for the people”. And it really echoes a lot of conversations I've had here at SeaDoc Society about…there are a lot of people who deeply deeply care for the environment and these species, but the people who actively seek that out and make that their life, activating them alone is not enough to shift, like, all the big changes you're talking about in the state and bringing in a bunch of partners and all the work that would need to happen to improve life for salmon and for Southern Resident killer whales requires more than just those people. And so tying, like you said, what's good for salmon is good for you as a person and your home. And helping people understand that this affects you as a person. And this affects the place that you call home. It's about the health of the place you call home. It feels like there's a way to more widely distribute this message and ideally move the needle in a way, if you help people think that way.

Cecilia Gobin (28:57):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I always have tried to tell the story of salmon and salmon recovery as much more part of this bigger picture of protecting this place we call home. Because it's not just about salmon and getting them to survive and thrive again, it's everything that comes along with getting to that: having clean water, making sure that we're not putting all these toxins into the air and the water that, if it's affecting a 15 to 20 pound fish, think about how it's affecting a human! You know, humans are not outside of environment, outside of this lifecycle. We're as much a part of this ecosystem as the salmon or the killer whale or the deer or the elk. I would say the difference is that we can actually dictate how well we protect it or not, right? Like that's on us. Sometimes I find myself wanting to tell people, great, if you're not a fisherman or fisherwoman, if you don't eat fish, that's fine, that's okay, but at least you’ve got to care about clean water, right? Or clean air. Or somehow it's going to come back to touch our people in our communities whether they are a commercial fishermen or recreational fisher, or whether they like the outdoors or not, there's some part of this place, whether they realize it or not, that they are just as much dependent on as any one of these resources, especially salmon.

Justin Cox (30:47):

And salmon are like poetically, this perfect example that, I mean, they spend their time out in the saltwater of the sea, but then they go all the way up through the mountains and cross multiple states at times. You can have this conversation about salmon with people on the other side of Washington while you're a marine conservation organization here in the Salish Sea, or tribes that survived off the coastal waters of the sea. It seemingly touches everything. And there's terrestrial animals that survive off the salmon after they go up there and they lay their eggs, and then die. And it's like the ultimate poetic circle of life type situation that a human being just can really connect to that story. 

Cecilia Gobin:

Oh, absolutely. 

Justin Cox:

Just generally looking at ahead, how are you feeling about things personally, and professionally and everything?

Cecilia Gobin (31:47):

I guess, personally and professionally, I always try to remain optimistic at the end of the day, just because of who I am and where I come from and my connection to this place, the Salish Sea, the salmon, the killer whales. I can never stop working to protect these things, to recover them, to get them to a place where they're truly thriving. Again, I can't even put into words how much I can’t conceptualize not having salmon. Like it's just so unreal to think about that.

Justin Cox (32:27):

If, if the status quo is maintained for another 20, 40, 60 years, where would you see us?

Cecilia Gobin (32:34):

Well on that same, with that same token, I would say I also know it's a very real reality that we do risk losing salmon in my lifetime. That's just a really scary and sad thing to think about. I think for tribal cultures and communities, especially, when we lose the salmon it's so much more than we're losing a economic and subsistence resource. Everything is tied to this place that we come from, our languages, our cultures, our way of life, our ceremony. And so when we lose pieces of that, it's going to have a trickle-down effect on our languages, on our ceremonies. How do you practice a first food ceremony when that food's no longer there? That part of the language becomes dormant. I think if the status quo is maintained, I think we're going to lose it. I don't feel confident that people have really (I say people, I mean, like the general population, lawmakers, what have you, outside of the tribes) I don't feel confident that people have really sat back and really sat with that and know and understand what that would mean to this place that we call home. We cannot let that happen. Like that is not an answer to this problem to just let it go its course. There's things that we can do. There's things that we should have been doing 10, 20 years ago that, you know, we're kind of at the end of the road and we have to make a choice here. Whether we're serious about having salmon in this state or whether we're not. And if we're not, then people need to start saying that out loud because otherwise we're just playing a feel-good game.

Justin Cox (34:45):

Yeah. And on that list of very sad things that would be lost if we lost salmon is this severely endangered species or population of killer whales that survives off of them of which there are only 70 or so left. Right?

Cecilia Gobin (35:01):

Absolutely. You take one thing off of the plate and it's going to affect everything.

Justin Cox (35:09):

Yeah. It sounds very much, I mean, when you get a species down to 70, when you have an endangered population that's struggling as much as salmon are in this area, it's all urgent. And I think you do a good job of articulating that in a way that, I know it moves me, and I hope it moves other people. This has been a real pleasure to talk to you.

Cecilia Gobin (35:35):

Well, it's been great to have been invited to participate. And I really appreciated the conversation.

Justin Cox (35:41):

Where can people find you or your work or anything you'd like to point people to?

Cecilia Gobin (35:48):

I'm on staff at the Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission, and if people want to reach out or get in touch with me or have questions for me they can find me there. I think my email is on the website there. And a lot of the publications that I had referenced earlier are on our website as well. Check out our nonprofit arm, Salmon Defense, that's doing a lot of good work. They've recently established the Billy Frank Jr. Salmon Coalition to work on these new ways of advancing salmon recovery.

Justin Cox (36:26):

Awesome. Well, Cecilia, thank you. 

Cecilia Gobin:

Yeah. Thank you, Justin. 

Justin Cox:

In next week's episode, we'll take a deep dive into killer whale history, from slaughter, to captivity, to whale-watching and more. We'll also look at where science fits into the whole equation. And our guest will be the guy who literally wrote the book on the topic. Visit seadocsociety.org to get our newsletter or to support marine science in the Salish Sea. We have a ton going on this spring, so definitely follow along there and on social media so that you don't miss out on any of it. Our logo was created by float.org and all music was created by Poddington Bear. Thank you.